COMMENTS BY YOUTUBE MEMBERS ON CESAR'S VIDEO CLIPS
In response to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkFhOw6p4
orangcurl wrote:
Cesar Millan,Old fashioned negative renforcement wraped up in modern Holly Wood marketing,hence the dont try this at home slogan.This man is more of a marketing tool than a God.If you really want to do your dog a favour stop poking it in the neck and get out and do some real work like Schutzhund,obedience or agility etc.Its a Dog it has energy and drives use then,enjoy them.Don,t quash them.
Jimmylovesdogs wrote:
This is terrible, why treat a dog like this? There are better ways that don't include jabbing your fingers into their ribs of kicking them or choking them
NVBKMal wrote:
He asphyxiates the dog and once it can't struggle because of hypoxia he calls it calm/submissive
The dog was not calm submissive, he was shutting down. That's the lie that Millan keeps selling and because you don't know the difference you keep swallowing it. The fool Millan broke the cardinal rule of not shoving the trigger on the dog's face. It's like taking a junkie to a drug house and then acting surprised when they do drugs.
The UNDENIABLE PROOF is that reward based methods WORK in the long term.
THE FACT IS THAT MILLAN FAILED AND THIS DOG REMAINS AGGRESSIVE.
Id0069 wrote:
Cesar did nothing to help this situation. The dog remained aggressive and was eventually adopted out to somebody in Nevada. This is from the "Ultimate Episode Guide" written by the executive producers of the show. ISBN: 9781416586111
Rasputina101 wrote
You can address this issue in a humane manner without manhandling your dog. All you need is some desensitization and counter-conditioning. It might take some time, or not depending on the root cause, but at least you can hope to address the real issue. I am a professional dog trainer and I use only positive based methods which incorporate animal learning theory and it is amazing to see the dogs come around WITHOUT me having to touch them or abuse them!
Gee, since when has animal abuse be an acceptable means of modifying animal behavior - only for the ignorant, I guess. Cesar should be ashamed, but I guess he is too busy counting his earnings. Money is all that matters here and not the fact that these old school methods are based on crap studies and causing many dogs to suffer and end up with real trainers trying to fix the problems milan has created and/or being euthanized. Appalling!
You might like to re-watch this video since Daddy was NOT calm as we are always led to believe. He was constantly pulling towards the other dogs (you will see the woman giving constant corrections and giving a subtle knee). You may also notice that Daddy's tail is standing straight up - not the sign of a calm dog to me, but of a dog that is highly aroused. Obviously, he hasn't broken Daddy's spirit yet...
I sure hope you treat the people in your life better than the depiction you gave here. So, hitting your dog in the throat brings results - yes, maybe someone should report you for animal cruelty. I imagine that you don't have a champion kennel dog, but a dog that is too scared to do anything to offend you in case it is abused. So friggin disturbing.
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Posted by PBOAE of Yorkshire on 18 Feb 2008
Here's a a random youtube link for you. Watch it WITHOUT the sound first.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gwFeSlsjFHA
[National geographic has had the video removed]
He holds the dog off the ground by a choke collar, and pins her down by her neck. Watch it closely and you will see she isn't jumping up (which is how many people see it initially) he is hauling her up by the choker around her neck. At the very least she is going to have a bruised neck and throat after this, at worse he could break her neck.
When he pins her, don't be under any illusion as to how hard he is pressing to keep her down either. He makes it look like it's barely a touch, but you can see him press his whole weight on her. By the time she's still her eyes are rolling and she's frothing, both indicators of severe stress.
Yes it's true that other dogs do do this (roll a dog and pin it on it's back) but only if they intend to kill it. So it's like holding a gun to a person's head if they don't do as they are told.
On top of all that, the dog wasn't even being aggressive in the first place, she's showing frustration, but also showing signs that she wants to greet the other dog, not kill it. What she needs is the chance to learn some meet and greet manners, not to be yanked around and pinned to the floor.
He also set the situation up by having the other dog walk straight up head on. He could have avoided that and gone straight into parallel walking, starting at a distance and then closing the gap. But then he wouldn't have had a chance to manhandle the dog, and that would have made for a boring TV show.
It's a pity it finishes when it does as well. I'd like to have seen more of the walking afterwards. As always 'Daddy' is being very submissive, avoiding eye contact with the other dog, ears back, etc. All CMs talk about Daddy being a dominant dog is BS, everything about his posture and body language says appeasement.
But say you did decide to follow this training route with this dog, it would mean the owner keeping up this regime. Aside from the obvious risk that an owner less experienced than CM is likely to end up bitten if they roll a dog like that. All the dog is learning is not to react. In the meantime, everytime it sees another dog something nasty happens to it (it gets pinned to the ground). She now has a good reason to start being scared of dogs, and will quickly move from frustration at not being able to interact appropriately, to fear aggression. Which is a much harder problem to work on.
Posted by PBOAE of Yorkshire on 18 Feb 2008
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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Comments on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpcNOwbRyOE
I abhor the way he trains. We do need more positive trainers on T.V. but what we do is not as sexy, not as riveting. There are some wonderful Clicker training you-tube videos out there. That is all I ask if anyone is at all interested to know WHY so many people feel that other methods are more effictive go find out for your self. Don't take my word for it. You can't beat a dolphin so how do they teach them? With science and science trumps all!
OjaiLabfancier
He claims to KNOW dogs, and can't even train them without inflicting pain on them...humbug, he's a real humbug!
Bastarden
In response to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkFhOw6p4
orangcurl wrote:
Cesar Millan,Old fashioned negative renforcement wraped up in modern Holly Wood marketing,hence the dont try this at home slogan.This man is more of a marketing tool than a God.If you really want to do your dog a favour stop poking it in the neck and get out and do some real work like Schutzhund,obedience or agility etc.Its a Dog it has energy and drives use then,enjoy them.Don,t quash them.
Jimmylovesdogs wrote:
This is terrible, why treat a dog like this? There are better ways that don't include jabbing your fingers into their ribs of kicking them or choking them
NVBKMal wrote:
He asphyxiates the dog and once it can't struggle because of hypoxia he calls it calm/submissive
The dog was not calm submissive, he was shutting down. That's the lie that Millan keeps selling and because you don't know the difference you keep swallowing it. The fool Millan broke the cardinal rule of not shoving the trigger on the dog's face. It's like taking a junkie to a drug house and then acting surprised when they do drugs.
The UNDENIABLE PROOF is that reward based methods WORK in the long term.
THE FACT IS THAT MILLAN FAILED AND THIS DOG REMAINS AGGRESSIVE.
Id0069 wrote:
Cesar did nothing to help this situation. The dog remained aggressive and was eventually adopted out to somebody in Nevada. This is from the "Ultimate Episode Guide" written by the executive producers of the show. ISBN: 9781416586111
Rasputina101 wrote
You can address this issue in a humane manner without manhandling your dog. All you need is some desensitization and counter-conditioning. It might take some time, or not depending on the root cause, but at least you can hope to address the real issue. I am a professional dog trainer and I use only positive based methods which incorporate animal learning theory and it is amazing to see the dogs come around WITHOUT me having to touch them or abuse them!
Gee, since when has animal abuse be an acceptable means of modifying animal behavior - only for the ignorant, I guess. Cesar should be ashamed, but I guess he is too busy counting his earnings. Money is all that matters here and not the fact that these old school methods are based on crap studies and causing many dogs to suffer and end up with real trainers trying to fix the problems milan has created and/or being euthanized. Appalling!
You might like to re-watch this video since Daddy was NOT calm as we are always led to believe. He was constantly pulling towards the other dogs (you will see the woman giving constant corrections and giving a subtle knee). You may also notice that Daddy's tail is standing straight up - not the sign of a calm dog to me, but of a dog that is highly aroused. Obviously, he hasn't broken Daddy's spirit yet...
I sure hope you treat the people in your life better than the depiction you gave here. So, hitting your dog in the throat brings results - yes, maybe someone should report you for animal cruelty. I imagine that you don't have a champion kennel dog, but a dog that is too scared to do anything to offend you in case it is abused. So friggin disturbing.
====================================================================================
Posted by PBOAE of Yorkshire on 18 Feb 2008
Here's a a random youtube link for you. Watch it WITHOUT the sound first.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gwFeSlsjFHA
[National geographic has had the video removed]
He holds the dog off the ground by a choke collar, and pins her down by her neck. Watch it closely and you will see she isn't jumping up (which is how many people see it initially) he is hauling her up by the choker around her neck. At the very least she is going to have a bruised neck and throat after this, at worse he could break her neck.
When he pins her, don't be under any illusion as to how hard he is pressing to keep her down either. He makes it look like it's barely a touch, but you can see him press his whole weight on her. By the time she's still her eyes are rolling and she's frothing, both indicators of severe stress.
Yes it's true that other dogs do do this (roll a dog and pin it on it's back) but only if they intend to kill it. So it's like holding a gun to a person's head if they don't do as they are told.
On top of all that, the dog wasn't even being aggressive in the first place, she's showing frustration, but also showing signs that she wants to greet the other dog, not kill it. What she needs is the chance to learn some meet and greet manners, not to be yanked around and pinned to the floor.
He also set the situation up by having the other dog walk straight up head on. He could have avoided that and gone straight into parallel walking, starting at a distance and then closing the gap. But then he wouldn't have had a chance to manhandle the dog, and that would have made for a boring TV show.
It's a pity it finishes when it does as well. I'd like to have seen more of the walking afterwards. As always 'Daddy' is being very submissive, avoiding eye contact with the other dog, ears back, etc. All CMs talk about Daddy being a dominant dog is BS, everything about his posture and body language says appeasement.
But say you did decide to follow this training route with this dog, it would mean the owner keeping up this regime. Aside from the obvious risk that an owner less experienced than CM is likely to end up bitten if they roll a dog like that. All the dog is learning is not to react. In the meantime, everytime it sees another dog something nasty happens to it (it gets pinned to the ground). She now has a good reason to start being scared of dogs, and will quickly move from frustration at not being able to interact appropriately, to fear aggression. Which is a much harder problem to work on.
Posted by PBOAE of Yorkshire on 18 Feb 2008
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpcNOwbRyOE
I abhor the way he trains. We do need more positive trainers on T.V. but what we do is not as sexy, not as riveting. There are some wonderful Clicker training you-tube videos out there. That is all I ask if anyone is at all interested to know WHY so many people feel that other methods are more effictive go find out for your self. Don't take my word for it. You can't beat a dolphin so how do they teach them? With science and science trumps all!
OjaiLabfancier
He claims to KNOW dogs, and can't even train them without inflicting pain on them...humbug, he's a real humbug!
Bastarden
