Owners and trainers comments from messageboards etc
For me it boils down to:
Jett Wyatt
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm
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I do not purchase products based on celebrity endorsements, but neither will I purchase a product which supports and advocates the training techniques of Cesar Millan.
The fact that his techniques MIGHT have an adverse effect is reason enough not to employ them. There are other techniques which work without the potential for unwanted or dangerous fallout. Just because the trainers using and advocating these techniques don’t have TV shows and CM fans are not aware of them, doesn’t mean that their success, safety and efficacy is not real.
Quite frankly I’d rather debate evolution with an evangelist then try to talk about dog training with a CM fan. Those of us who disagree with his methods, understand them, something which fans often seem to disregard. CM’s techniques are not new, he has taken 19th century training techniques, couched them in new age lingo and dragged them into the 21st century.
Debbie Jacobs
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm
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Voted "Best answer" on Yahoo! Answers
http://ph.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081103171331AAVjRcN
Quesion: Is Cesar Millan cruel?
Answer by Jacob. B:
All he does is use fear to control them, its obvious that all he does is hit or kick them hen they do something that he doesnt like.
He isn't really training the dog.
Alphas in wolf packs are nothing like Cesar, most of the time, the Alpha is the oldest and most experienced wolf, not the toughest, confrontations in wolf packs are done mostly with posture and growling and RARELY physical contact (how would they survive if all they did was bite each other?)
Wolves dont alpha roll - they roll over voluntarily and are not forced over.
Alpha's dont walk in front - subordinate wolves walk in front during travel.
Cesar Milan is full of crap.
Anyone who disagrees with me - look it up and show me ONE link that says anything different, I have actually researched the subject.
People giving me thumbs down - I'm waiting for you to prove me wrong.
He has been sued twice for injuring dogs at his "rehabilitation" center.
Alpha sounds all tough and big, but in reality, Alpha wolves are merely the breeding pair of the pack, the parents, nothing else.
I really think its funny how all these people are saying "oh he acts like the leader of the pack" when they have NO IDEA how a pack acts.
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Other answers:
IMO it doesn't make sense for people to try to act like dogs or treat dogs like they think they treat each other in the wild. For one thing, dogs have been domesticated for a very long time, and dog behavior (including "pack" behavior) is different from wolf behavior which is usually the model people use when they are trying to act or treat their dogs like 'dogs in the wild'. Second of all, dogs know that people are not dogs! Trying to act like one is just confusing.
Much of the training methods Cesar is basing his training or behaviorism or 'whispering' or whatever you want to call it on are based on outdated ideas and in some cases false/misinterpreted information (example--he uses the 'alpha roll' which was based on a myth of wolf behavior).
This alone is enough for me to disagree with his methods. Add that the methods are often harsh and some are things which can cause dogs problems to worsen (including causing aggression towards the owner which can backfire big time) and I can not condone him at all. That is my opinion of Cesar Millan.
Just because a method works does not mean it is appropriate to use on a dog, and also does not mean that it can not have serious repercussions, even if used properly. A good example of this is flooding. It can cause even more severe behavior problems, even aggression.
Miracle Paw
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The problems I have in the few times I have been able to sit through his shows is he shows dangerous ways to tame aggressive dogs. These methods would and have caused novice trainers to get bit or mauled. His little "warning" doesn't work for people. He uses outdated methods and there is no way to do what he does in a 30 minute session.
90% of dogs just need obedience training and socialization. They don't need to be choked into walking on lead or thrown on their back to get their attention.
If the dog does need a behaviorist then they need a hands on professional that can evaluate the dog and work with the owners. They do not need some dude on a tv show making look easy.
BYB (dog obedience trainer)
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090327083817AAvt1UB
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I firmly believe Mr.Millans methods have been outdated since 1960 and are doing more harm than good. Many people watch his show and believe they can self diagnios and "cure" their dog because they saw a little untrained uneducated man do it. He hurts more than helps. Dominance is a tricky thing for an uneducated person to understand so unless you have formal education on the subject do not use it in your response. Also have you ever seen one dog throw another dog on the ground? I didnt think so. 4 months ago
Also dogs have about as much incommon with wolves as we have with monkeys. The pack theory is so watered down and over used and often taken out of context. 4 months ago
If you had issues would you feel comfortable and rehabilitated if a man came threw you on the ground kicked and clucked at you and then called it Rehabilatation? I think not!!! Rehabilatation, Behaviorist all balogna he has no training and no formal education his methods are outdated and he is nothing but an actor playing the part of a super human dog training wizard.
Psycho Mutts (dog trainer)
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090327083817AAvt1UB
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I think even fans of Cesar Milan should realize he's a farce. He sold his soul to the Animal Planet's marketing campaign. Now his face is on a whole bunch of products in Petco.
"Also dogs have about as much incommon with wolves as we have with monkeys. The pack theory is so watered down and over used and often taken out of context."
-- I somewhat agree with this statement. Problem with the wolf pack is that the dogs would fall to the lowest rank. Out in the wild, being the lowest rank means they may or may not wander away to form packs of their own. Also, kind of hard to press the pack theory and then turn around and let your subordinate dog in the pack breed and make puppies. Mating in the wild is only allowed by the alpha couple. So... that blows THAT theory out of the water.
Jennifer
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090327083817AAvt1UB
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Cesar Milan doesn't force them to confront their fears, he just frightens them more than then thing they are scared of.
To give you a human example. I am scared of spiders. When I see a spider I react to it, I might scream or try to get away from it. To stop me doing this, you force me to confront a spider. Everytime I react you jab me in the neck, yank me on a collar, or even give me an electric shock. Eventually I will stop reacting to the spider, because I know that if I do react you will hurt me.
Next time I saw a spider when you were there, I would probably stay extremely still and quiet. Somebody else seeing that might congratulate on on how well you had done. I am still and quiet, therefore I am calm and no longer scared. But actually I would still be absolutely terrified, and my stillness would be a fear of reacting, not a lack of fear. In dogs that is called 'shutting down' and you see it all the time on CM's show.
Then you need to consider the spider's point of view. Before I was shouting, waving my arms arouns, and trying to get away from the spider. Spiders usually take the hint and get away from me as quickly as they can. It's still a hysterical over reaction on my part, but in the end no harm is done.
Now I don't react anymore. The spider is there, it's getting nearer, I'm scared to move, scared to shout, eventually the spider reaches me. What happens then? Well, it depends a lot on the individual. In my case I'd probably be sick and pass out (which has happened in the past when I was 'trapped' with a spider). Or if I was a bit braver I'd probably kill it, especially if it was something I had a reason to be scared of (e.g. a black widow) rather than just an irrational fear.
With the above in mind, these are the reasons I dislike CM
1) his training methods involve hurting the dog. I find this completely unacceptable.
2) his training methods are potentially dangerous to the dog (he has been sued for the physical damage done to dogs at his centre).
3) his training methods are dangerous to the trainers
4) his training methods create dogs that are walking time bombs. A dog that has been trained not show fear is an accident waiting to happen. If something scared them and they are not allowed to run away, not allowed to scare it off, not allowed to look to their owner for protection, then they only option they have left is to kill it. When the dog finally snaps and goes for someone or another dog the owners are completely shocked, because they thought the dog had been 'cured'.
There are far kinder, more effective and less potentially dangerous training methods available. Why pick the one that's bad for the dog and bad for the owner?
You might also be interested in Ian Dunbar's thoughts on it
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MGPHL9D1N1.DTL
Also, watch a CM showith the sound turned off. Watch the dog's body language, it's signs of stress (averting gaze, muzzle licking, ears flat, etc) and how hard he jabs them, the sly kicks he gives them. When you ignore the nonsense he waffles over the top it's a very different show.
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The pack leader and dominance stuff was discredited long ago. The original science it was based on was so flawed that the theories derived from it were nonsense. Even some of it's greatest supporters (e.g. John Fisher) have since done a u-turn on it.
I am not my dog's leader, I do not dominate him in anyway. I have trained him to be obedient with positive training. Everything I do goes against the rules of pack theory, yet he still does as I ask. He will let me do things he dislikes, even let me hurt him (e.g. when he has sore ears that need cleaning). If pack theory were correct, that shouldn't be possible.
So in one way I would agree with doing whatever works for your dog, because for most dogs it doesn't matter what approach you follow. As long as you are consistent and clear about what you want from them, they will learn, and they will behave as you ask.
On the other hand I disagree with that approach, because it allows people to continue to abuse dogs and call it 'training'. I also disagree with it because it doesn't address what happens if it doesn't work. With positive training the worst that will happen is that the dog either doesn't learn or learns something irrelevant. Which is the owner's cue that they need to make their instructions clearer.
With punishment based training when things go wrong they can go very wrong indeed, and there's a good chance someone one (or another dog) will end up bitten as a result. And if that training involves hurting a dog or terrifying them into submission, then as far as I am concerned that's abuse not training.
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I'd like to say I am surprised or disappointed with how much support he has, but I can't honestly say that. There are too many people who believe everything they see on television. Still, it only needs a few more deaths and serious injuries at the 'Dog Psychology Center' or at the hands of his assistants. Dead dogs don't make for good ratings.
In the meantime dogs will continue to get kicked, throttled and shocked by the people who are supposed to be caring for them, and that's the bit that really does depress me.
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As a scientific theory pack leadership was based on misinterpretation of poor data. It still works as a training tool because if is followed carefully it forces the owner to be consistent and that is the single most important factor in dog training. Dogs know that humans are not dogs, they do not communicate with us in the same way as they do with other dogs, they do not expect us to communicate or behave like another dog. So the concept of a human behaving like a dog in order to assert pack leadership, makes no sense.
Posted by PBOAE of Yorkshire on 18 Feb 2008
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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The man is dangerous. Apart from traumatising the dogs he personally has contact with, and creating ticking timebombs in the dogs that he 'trains', he's making Joe Bloggs think that the things he's doing are acceptable. Giving the wrong messages about what is aggressive body language in dogs and generally spreading misinformation that's worse that the shouting and choke chains approach that made good telly some years back. SSSIIIITTTT!!!!!
Yes, the owners are planks. Of course they are. It wouldn't be good telly otherwise, would it? If they were educated by someone using modern methods, there would be good results. These ones would last..
He's nearly as good as the idiot in the pet shop that's been selling every person with any kind of a problem those squirty air canisters.
Posted by Stringandbrownpaper on 24 Feb 2008
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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Anyone with any knowledge of dogs body language should be able to see the signs of stress in the dogs that cm handles.lip smacking avoiding eye contact, panting etc, although all dogs of course need exercise cm often wears out dogs by rollerbladeing, running or a treadmill before working with them. many of these dogs are not used to exercise so are exhausted before he starts. He does use prong collars and electric collars which are cruel.
Some of the dogs that he says are in a calm submissive state have shut down because they are to frightened to move, not because he has worked his ''magic'' on them.
Remember you only see a small part of what goes on in these programes.
[...]
Ive owned dogs for over twenty years including rescues and large guarding breeds and have worked with dogs too, as well as other animals and I would never use some of the methods cm uses. I have seen him hold a dog down while holding another small dog that had been attacked by the first dog over the first dog to get the first dog to submit to the dog it had attacked. The look of terror on the small dog was very obvious. It was avoiding eye contact, turning its head away, lip smacking and shaking and yet cm says that by holding it above the first dog it was showing its 'dominance' over the first dog. dogs use body language far more than we realise and the first dog would have been well aware that the small dog was terrified. Nothing would have been gained by this and most likely the dog would have attacked the small dog again although of course this would not have been shown on tv.
Posted by Callywally
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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What scares me about CM is that people take what is primarily entertainment and "have a go" on their own dogs....the old saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing is so true.If you have a dog with so many issues it is likely that your methods are already flawed (obviously rescues are different but then the rescue itself should be advising you) so to change tack and try a quick fix on the back of a TV series, particularly such a confrontational method is potentially lethal IMHO.
I have only seen a few of his shows and found them so upsetting that I don't watch them any more. I'm sure his methods can work but they are not for "amateurs" to safely try .
Posted by Orleo
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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Right, I have just watched that clip quite carefully... I am not a fan of CM but have not seen a lot of his stuff before, so here are my observations.
OH who has worked on film and animations spotted an edit at about 2.20 between CM getting the dog on the floor, the camera flicks away, then returns to CM and a more subdued dog - as he says it is hard to guess what has happened, but its possible that CM didnt want it all shown...
Also, I have worked as a trainer in the use of physical restraint with people - this is a complex area in terms of legislation, ethics and risk, and of course people and dogs are very different, but it does mean I have some understanding of the risks of physical restraint and how to assess the safety of such interventions and check for someone's wellbeing being compromised by physical intervention - specifically positional asphyxia.
In my honest opinion, what CM does to that dog is take it to the point of losing conciousness by simultaneously applying pressure to the neck area, and using a slip collar tightened around the neck.
At 2 minutes 29 seconds you see him loosen the ligature around the dog's neck, and at the same time the dog takes a deep breath, re-filling its lungs with air. I havent watched it with the sound on because I dont need CM to tell me what I am seeing! At the end of the clip the dog is semi conscious and unable to get up until it has re-oxygenated.
Needless to say acting this way against a person would be seen as a very serious assault with a real risk of causing death.
Well, those are my observations - and in light of those, I have to say I wouldnt let him near an animal of mine, I have had some feisty dogs but always felt co-operation and leadership were the key, not strangling them into submission. Maybe the dogs become more subdued as a result of mild brain damage caused by strangulation!
I suspect that the dog was restrained in this way for a longer period of time than we see, and the edit is to cut out a lengthy middle section - however, that bit is merely speculation.
[...]
I have no axe to grind, but he is indeed taking that dog to the verge of asphyxia. I have explained fully the reasoning behind this observation. The dog does not get up immediately because it physically cannot, and, yes, I guess it will be likely to be submissive after a few episodes of that sort of treatment, but that does not mean it is ok, or wise.
If you want a human analogy, many people who live with violent abusers become very submissive, trying anything they can to 'keep the peace' and appease the abuser, whilst living in fear. However, this is an unhealthy dynamic, damging for the abused party, and of course, occasionaly the 'worm will turn' and attack the abuser.
Posted by Foreign Correspondent
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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Responding to: "Every animal needs a leader....how can you be a dog lover and not know that?"
Kicking, choking and administering electric shock is abuse, not leadership. Even most people how don't really like dogs, never mind those who claim to 'love' them would baulk at carrying out such actions.
The argument that it can't be cruel because it's on the tellybox is laughable, have you never seen the Grand National or, until this year, Crufts, where they show dogs that have been breed into such deformity that they can't breath properly or even give birth unassisted?
The only piece of 'advice' that Cesar gives out that I think is worth listening to is not to try any of his techniques on your own pet.
Reward based training is hard work, I'm sure that the results I see would come much more quickly if I were to kick my dog until he did what I wanted him to but I quite like my dog and I think that it's safer if he likes me too.
I guess that this is a bit like the child smacking argument; 25 years ago it wasn't just acceptable but normal to hit children, then it stopped being normal and now most people flinch when they see it. By degrees humanity is becoming a little more civilised and, hopefully, one day dogs will see the benefit of this.
Cesar's idea of 'leadership' is a watered down version of the pack mentality research -with some hippy-dippy-ness added and the disproved science taken away. Your dog knows that you're not an alpha male; you don't smell like one, you don't have the body language of one, you can't even walk on four legs. However, you dog is still willing to do what you want because you provide either pleasant or unpleasant stimuli.
Posted by Trudiha
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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Err hello - the programme is edited - that means any bits which might show what the general public might perceive as abuse. When you understand dog body language you can easily see the 'shut down' expression on the dogs faces. We're not talking 'petrified' abuse here, we're talking subtle (and not so subtle) mind games.
Posted by Raksha
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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For me it boils down to:
- Cesar himself says he’s not a trainer.
- The program starts with a disclaimer “Don’t try this at home”.
- There is no evidence, other than what we keep being told, that these are “last chance” dogs he is working with.
- He calls himself a “dog psychiatrist” which means absolutely nothing in any professional sense.
- There is no basis in science for his dominance theory/wolf pack model.
- He gets bitten every show (well, probably not every show, but a significant number of shows).
- Trainers, Behaviorists and Veterinary Behavorists that I respect and who *do* actually have credentials in the field (and have rehabilitated countless dogs with behavior problems) do not endorse his methods.
Jett Wyatt
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm
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I do not purchase products based on celebrity endorsements, but neither will I purchase a product which supports and advocates the training techniques of Cesar Millan.
The fact that his techniques MIGHT have an adverse effect is reason enough not to employ them. There are other techniques which work without the potential for unwanted or dangerous fallout. Just because the trainers using and advocating these techniques don’t have TV shows and CM fans are not aware of them, doesn’t mean that their success, safety and efficacy is not real.
Quite frankly I’d rather debate evolution with an evangelist then try to talk about dog training with a CM fan. Those of us who disagree with his methods, understand them, something which fans often seem to disregard. CM’s techniques are not new, he has taken 19th century training techniques, couched them in new age lingo and dragged them into the 21st century.
Debbie Jacobs
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm
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Voted "Best answer" on Yahoo! Answers
http://ph.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081103171331AAVjRcN
Quesion: Is Cesar Millan cruel?
Answer by Jacob. B:
All he does is use fear to control them, its obvious that all he does is hit or kick them hen they do something that he doesnt like.
He isn't really training the dog.
Alphas in wolf packs are nothing like Cesar, most of the time, the Alpha is the oldest and most experienced wolf, not the toughest, confrontations in wolf packs are done mostly with posture and growling and RARELY physical contact (how would they survive if all they did was bite each other?)
Wolves dont alpha roll - they roll over voluntarily and are not forced over.
Alpha's dont walk in front - subordinate wolves walk in front during travel.
Cesar Milan is full of crap.
Anyone who disagrees with me - look it up and show me ONE link that says anything different, I have actually researched the subject.
People giving me thumbs down - I'm waiting for you to prove me wrong.
He has been sued twice for injuring dogs at his "rehabilitation" center.
Alpha sounds all tough and big, but in reality, Alpha wolves are merely the breeding pair of the pack, the parents, nothing else.
I really think its funny how all these people are saying "oh he acts like the leader of the pack" when they have NO IDEA how a pack acts.
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Other answers:
IMO it doesn't make sense for people to try to act like dogs or treat dogs like they think they treat each other in the wild. For one thing, dogs have been domesticated for a very long time, and dog behavior (including "pack" behavior) is different from wolf behavior which is usually the model people use when they are trying to act or treat their dogs like 'dogs in the wild'. Second of all, dogs know that people are not dogs! Trying to act like one is just confusing.
Much of the training methods Cesar is basing his training or behaviorism or 'whispering' or whatever you want to call it on are based on outdated ideas and in some cases false/misinterpreted information (example--he uses the 'alpha roll' which was based on a myth of wolf behavior).
This alone is enough for me to disagree with his methods. Add that the methods are often harsh and some are things which can cause dogs problems to worsen (including causing aggression towards the owner which can backfire big time) and I can not condone him at all. That is my opinion of Cesar Millan.
Just because a method works does not mean it is appropriate to use on a dog, and also does not mean that it can not have serious repercussions, even if used properly. A good example of this is flooding. It can cause even more severe behavior problems, even aggression.
Miracle Paw
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The problems I have in the few times I have been able to sit through his shows is he shows dangerous ways to tame aggressive dogs. These methods would and have caused novice trainers to get bit or mauled. His little "warning" doesn't work for people. He uses outdated methods and there is no way to do what he does in a 30 minute session.
90% of dogs just need obedience training and socialization. They don't need to be choked into walking on lead or thrown on their back to get their attention.
If the dog does need a behaviorist then they need a hands on professional that can evaluate the dog and work with the owners. They do not need some dude on a tv show making look easy.
BYB (dog obedience trainer)
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090327083817AAvt1UB
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I firmly believe Mr.Millans methods have been outdated since 1960 and are doing more harm than good. Many people watch his show and believe they can self diagnios and "cure" their dog because they saw a little untrained uneducated man do it. He hurts more than helps. Dominance is a tricky thing for an uneducated person to understand so unless you have formal education on the subject do not use it in your response. Also have you ever seen one dog throw another dog on the ground? I didnt think so. 4 months ago
Also dogs have about as much incommon with wolves as we have with monkeys. The pack theory is so watered down and over used and often taken out of context. 4 months ago
If you had issues would you feel comfortable and rehabilitated if a man came threw you on the ground kicked and clucked at you and then called it Rehabilatation? I think not!!! Rehabilatation, Behaviorist all balogna he has no training and no formal education his methods are outdated and he is nothing but an actor playing the part of a super human dog training wizard.
Psycho Mutts (dog trainer)
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090327083817AAvt1UB
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I think even fans of Cesar Milan should realize he's a farce. He sold his soul to the Animal Planet's marketing campaign. Now his face is on a whole bunch of products in Petco.
"Also dogs have about as much incommon with wolves as we have with monkeys. The pack theory is so watered down and over used and often taken out of context."
-- I somewhat agree with this statement. Problem with the wolf pack is that the dogs would fall to the lowest rank. Out in the wild, being the lowest rank means they may or may not wander away to form packs of their own. Also, kind of hard to press the pack theory and then turn around and let your subordinate dog in the pack breed and make puppies. Mating in the wild is only allowed by the alpha couple. So... that blows THAT theory out of the water.
Jennifer
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090327083817AAvt1UB
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Cesar Milan doesn't force them to confront their fears, he just frightens them more than then thing they are scared of.
To give you a human example. I am scared of spiders. When I see a spider I react to it, I might scream or try to get away from it. To stop me doing this, you force me to confront a spider. Everytime I react you jab me in the neck, yank me on a collar, or even give me an electric shock. Eventually I will stop reacting to the spider, because I know that if I do react you will hurt me.
Next time I saw a spider when you were there, I would probably stay extremely still and quiet. Somebody else seeing that might congratulate on on how well you had done. I am still and quiet, therefore I am calm and no longer scared. But actually I would still be absolutely terrified, and my stillness would be a fear of reacting, not a lack of fear. In dogs that is called 'shutting down' and you see it all the time on CM's show.
Then you need to consider the spider's point of view. Before I was shouting, waving my arms arouns, and trying to get away from the spider. Spiders usually take the hint and get away from me as quickly as they can. It's still a hysterical over reaction on my part, but in the end no harm is done.
Now I don't react anymore. The spider is there, it's getting nearer, I'm scared to move, scared to shout, eventually the spider reaches me. What happens then? Well, it depends a lot on the individual. In my case I'd probably be sick and pass out (which has happened in the past when I was 'trapped' with a spider). Or if I was a bit braver I'd probably kill it, especially if it was something I had a reason to be scared of (e.g. a black widow) rather than just an irrational fear.
With the above in mind, these are the reasons I dislike CM
1) his training methods involve hurting the dog. I find this completely unacceptable.
2) his training methods are potentially dangerous to the dog (he has been sued for the physical damage done to dogs at his centre).
3) his training methods are dangerous to the trainers
4) his training methods create dogs that are walking time bombs. A dog that has been trained not show fear is an accident waiting to happen. If something scared them and they are not allowed to run away, not allowed to scare it off, not allowed to look to their owner for protection, then they only option they have left is to kill it. When the dog finally snaps and goes for someone or another dog the owners are completely shocked, because they thought the dog had been 'cured'.
There are far kinder, more effective and less potentially dangerous training methods available. Why pick the one that's bad for the dog and bad for the owner?
You might also be interested in Ian Dunbar's thoughts on it
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MGPHL9D1N1.DTL
Also, watch a CM showith the sound turned off. Watch the dog's body language, it's signs of stress (averting gaze, muzzle licking, ears flat, etc) and how hard he jabs them, the sly kicks he gives them. When you ignore the nonsense he waffles over the top it's a very different show.
[...]
The pack leader and dominance stuff was discredited long ago. The original science it was based on was so flawed that the theories derived from it were nonsense. Even some of it's greatest supporters (e.g. John Fisher) have since done a u-turn on it.
I am not my dog's leader, I do not dominate him in anyway. I have trained him to be obedient with positive training. Everything I do goes against the rules of pack theory, yet he still does as I ask. He will let me do things he dislikes, even let me hurt him (e.g. when he has sore ears that need cleaning). If pack theory were correct, that shouldn't be possible.
So in one way I would agree with doing whatever works for your dog, because for most dogs it doesn't matter what approach you follow. As long as you are consistent and clear about what you want from them, they will learn, and they will behave as you ask.
On the other hand I disagree with that approach, because it allows people to continue to abuse dogs and call it 'training'. I also disagree with it because it doesn't address what happens if it doesn't work. With positive training the worst that will happen is that the dog either doesn't learn or learns something irrelevant. Which is the owner's cue that they need to make their instructions clearer.
With punishment based training when things go wrong they can go very wrong indeed, and there's a good chance someone one (or another dog) will end up bitten as a result. And if that training involves hurting a dog or terrifying them into submission, then as far as I am concerned that's abuse not training.
[...]
I'd like to say I am surprised or disappointed with how much support he has, but I can't honestly say that. There are too many people who believe everything they see on television. Still, it only needs a few more deaths and serious injuries at the 'Dog Psychology Center' or at the hands of his assistants. Dead dogs don't make for good ratings.
In the meantime dogs will continue to get kicked, throttled and shocked by the people who are supposed to be caring for them, and that's the bit that really does depress me.
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As a scientific theory pack leadership was based on misinterpretation of poor data. It still works as a training tool because if is followed carefully it forces the owner to be consistent and that is the single most important factor in dog training. Dogs know that humans are not dogs, they do not communicate with us in the same way as they do with other dogs, they do not expect us to communicate or behave like another dog. So the concept of a human behaving like a dog in order to assert pack leadership, makes no sense.
Posted by PBOAE of Yorkshire on 18 Feb 2008
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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The man is dangerous. Apart from traumatising the dogs he personally has contact with, and creating ticking timebombs in the dogs that he 'trains', he's making Joe Bloggs think that the things he's doing are acceptable. Giving the wrong messages about what is aggressive body language in dogs and generally spreading misinformation that's worse that the shouting and choke chains approach that made good telly some years back. SSSIIIITTTT!!!!!
Yes, the owners are planks. Of course they are. It wouldn't be good telly otherwise, would it? If they were educated by someone using modern methods, there would be good results. These ones would last..
He's nearly as good as the idiot in the pet shop that's been selling every person with any kind of a problem those squirty air canisters.
Posted by Stringandbrownpaper on 24 Feb 2008
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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Anyone with any knowledge of dogs body language should be able to see the signs of stress in the dogs that cm handles.lip smacking avoiding eye contact, panting etc, although all dogs of course need exercise cm often wears out dogs by rollerbladeing, running or a treadmill before working with them. many of these dogs are not used to exercise so are exhausted before he starts. He does use prong collars and electric collars which are cruel.
Some of the dogs that he says are in a calm submissive state have shut down because they are to frightened to move, not because he has worked his ''magic'' on them.
Remember you only see a small part of what goes on in these programes.
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Ive owned dogs for over twenty years including rescues and large guarding breeds and have worked with dogs too, as well as other animals and I would never use some of the methods cm uses. I have seen him hold a dog down while holding another small dog that had been attacked by the first dog over the first dog to get the first dog to submit to the dog it had attacked. The look of terror on the small dog was very obvious. It was avoiding eye contact, turning its head away, lip smacking and shaking and yet cm says that by holding it above the first dog it was showing its 'dominance' over the first dog. dogs use body language far more than we realise and the first dog would have been well aware that the small dog was terrified. Nothing would have been gained by this and most likely the dog would have attacked the small dog again although of course this would not have been shown on tv.
Posted by Callywally
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What scares me about CM is that people take what is primarily entertainment and "have a go" on their own dogs....the old saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing is so true.If you have a dog with so many issues it is likely that your methods are already flawed (obviously rescues are different but then the rescue itself should be advising you) so to change tack and try a quick fix on the back of a TV series, particularly such a confrontational method is potentially lethal IMHO.
I have only seen a few of his shows and found them so upsetting that I don't watch them any more. I'm sure his methods can work but they are not for "amateurs" to safely try .
Posted by Orleo
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Right, I have just watched that clip quite carefully... I am not a fan of CM but have not seen a lot of his stuff before, so here are my observations.
OH who has worked on film and animations spotted an edit at about 2.20 between CM getting the dog on the floor, the camera flicks away, then returns to CM and a more subdued dog - as he says it is hard to guess what has happened, but its possible that CM didnt want it all shown...
Also, I have worked as a trainer in the use of physical restraint with people - this is a complex area in terms of legislation, ethics and risk, and of course people and dogs are very different, but it does mean I have some understanding of the risks of physical restraint and how to assess the safety of such interventions and check for someone's wellbeing being compromised by physical intervention - specifically positional asphyxia.
In my honest opinion, what CM does to that dog is take it to the point of losing conciousness by simultaneously applying pressure to the neck area, and using a slip collar tightened around the neck.
At 2 minutes 29 seconds you see him loosen the ligature around the dog's neck, and at the same time the dog takes a deep breath, re-filling its lungs with air. I havent watched it with the sound on because I dont need CM to tell me what I am seeing! At the end of the clip the dog is semi conscious and unable to get up until it has re-oxygenated.
Needless to say acting this way against a person would be seen as a very serious assault with a real risk of causing death.
Well, those are my observations - and in light of those, I have to say I wouldnt let him near an animal of mine, I have had some feisty dogs but always felt co-operation and leadership were the key, not strangling them into submission. Maybe the dogs become more subdued as a result of mild brain damage caused by strangulation!
I suspect that the dog was restrained in this way for a longer period of time than we see, and the edit is to cut out a lengthy middle section - however, that bit is merely speculation.
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I have no axe to grind, but he is indeed taking that dog to the verge of asphyxia. I have explained fully the reasoning behind this observation. The dog does not get up immediately because it physically cannot, and, yes, I guess it will be likely to be submissive after a few episodes of that sort of treatment, but that does not mean it is ok, or wise.
If you want a human analogy, many people who live with violent abusers become very submissive, trying anything they can to 'keep the peace' and appease the abuser, whilst living in fear. However, this is an unhealthy dynamic, damging for the abused party, and of course, occasionaly the 'worm will turn' and attack the abuser.
Posted by Foreign Correspondent
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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Responding to: "Every animal needs a leader....how can you be a dog lover and not know that?"
Kicking, choking and administering electric shock is abuse, not leadership. Even most people how don't really like dogs, never mind those who claim to 'love' them would baulk at carrying out such actions.
The argument that it can't be cruel because it's on the tellybox is laughable, have you never seen the Grand National or, until this year, Crufts, where they show dogs that have been breed into such deformity that they can't breath properly or even give birth unassisted?
The only piece of 'advice' that Cesar gives out that I think is worth listening to is not to try any of his techniques on your own pet.
Reward based training is hard work, I'm sure that the results I see would come much more quickly if I were to kick my dog until he did what I wanted him to but I quite like my dog and I think that it's safer if he likes me too.
I guess that this is a bit like the child smacking argument; 25 years ago it wasn't just acceptable but normal to hit children, then it stopped being normal and now most people flinch when they see it. By degrees humanity is becoming a little more civilised and, hopefully, one day dogs will see the benefit of this.
Cesar's idea of 'leadership' is a watered down version of the pack mentality research -with some hippy-dippy-ness added and the disproved science taken away. Your dog knows that you're not an alpha male; you don't smell like one, you don't have the body language of one, you can't even walk on four legs. However, you dog is still willing to do what you want because you provide either pleasant or unpleasant stimuli.
Posted by Trudiha
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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Err hello - the programme is edited - that means any bits which might show what the general public might perceive as abuse. When you understand dog body language you can easily see the 'shut down' expression on the dogs faces. We're not talking 'petrified' abuse here, we're talking subtle (and not so subtle) mind games.
Posted by Raksha
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=749649
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