LA Times comments board
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/01/cesar-millan-sa.html?cid=144561330
Responses to the article: Cesar Millan: Saint or cult leader? By Sean Gallagher, January 8, 2009
Millan is liked by people who don't know a whole lot about dogs. His TV show is most conveniently edited, and sadly the fallout of his methods isn't shown. He *is*, unfortunately, a marketing genius. He is not well thought of by many dog and behavior professionals, and for good reason.
“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated... I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."
Steve Dale
Posted by: citydog | January 08, 2009 at 03:08 PM
==================
My dogs are all clicker trained. They are not terrorized into performing desired behaviors. I don't relate to them through fear and domination via the Gospel of Saint Cesar.
Yes he is charismatic, yes he is a good salesman, yes he gets results. So have other cult leaders....
My dogs learn at mere weeks of age to run through their growing repertoire of behaviors until they hit on the right one resulting in the reward, then they never forget it.
Not as guaranteed to get good ratings on TV as a guy who talks nonstop, dominates his environment and everything/everyone in it, and terrorizes dogs into desired behavior. Not as much "fun" as watching a committed barker/leash puller become frightened and suspicious of a human's ever move, resulting in the dog riveting his eyes in fear on that person every second of the day.
The rewards here are for the humans who are desperate, clueless, or need another living thing to fall submissively at their feet every second of the day and night...
I guess I'm just not good with cult leaders, hucksters, hustlers, slick salespeople, or pushy "stars" in general.
Posted by: Clu Carradine | January 08, 2009 at 04:58 PM
=====================
I made the mistake of "glorifying" Cesar Millan. I saw him speak, was captivated by his power and energy and tried his methods with my "aggressive dog". It ended up with me being bitten, just like Cesar has been bitten many times by an aggressive dog, because I pushed him beyond his thresholds. But the general dog public isn't that familiar with thresholds. And of course we don't allow our dogs to have them for fear of being sued.
I find it amazing that people expect dogs to have no emotions and to NEVER express or act out on them - calm submission 100% of the time is the model, I guess. They aren't allowed to be excited, happy, fearful, anxious, sad .... why? Why can I come home from work and yell at my spouse when I had a bad day, but my dog can't? Why can I jump around in uncontrollable excitement when something good happens, but my dog can't?
I converted to positive training methods and became a true "benevolent" leader for my dog. NEVER putting them in situations that they can't handle and NEVER forcing them to face their fears or else....a kick, pop, or the dreaded alpha roll.
I protect my dogs, recognize that they have emotions and try to be the fairest leader possible using positive motiviation to help them learn HUMAN rules. But I also set boundaries, limits, rules and expectations and make sure they truly understand those rules and don't physically punish them if they don't. Let's try to remember - THEY AREN'T BORN SPEAKING OUR LANGUAGE. But of course, we expect them to have FULL FLUENCY of our spoken language by what, 6 months of age?? Ridiculous. And how many dog owners actually spend the time and effort to learn and respect canine language? Well, in Cesar's philosphy - I guess you don't have to - they don't have any rights and aren't allowed to be anything but calm, submissive.
I am closer to my dogs now than I have ever been before and we are still learning every day. My dogs now respect and respond to me and they don't do it out of fear, they do it out of respect for benevolent leadership. They trust that I will PROTECT them in scary situations, not toss them into them and kick them when they don't comply. They LOVE working their brains and learning in positive environments - there is no end to what they can do. But that is only if you spend the time to get to know who they truly are - their strengths and weaknesses, and allow them to express themselves, while managing their weaknesses not just dominating them and expecting perfect behavior all the time. Oh, I guess that would take too much effort? From my experience, you get back from the relationship what you put in. And since converting to positive training, I have been rewarded with incredibly rich relationships with my dogs.
Honestly, how heartless can people be when it comes to training dogs to justify physical punishment to an animal that WE bring into OUR world and impose all of OUR rules and expectations and then don't take the time to teach them positively how to live in OUR world? That is what I define as selfish.
Put yourself in your DOG's shoes and think about it.
Posted by: Dana | January 08, 2009 at 06:56 PM
=====================================
I am with Steve Dale on this, I rehab the SO called Red zone dogs and a lot of Mr Millans Red zones dogs are just average problem dogs in my book. And I still don't use his methods... He's out of date and have no clue what he's really doing. It works cause it shuts the dogs down and create a passive dog, he's passive cause he don't want more of what he feels is scary.
My last case I worked I had for 7 months, a 130 lbs rottweiler that did not like people to say the last. He tried to pin me and my ex husband against the wall... I never ONCE had to lay hand on this dog. Using clicker, hotdogs and positive reinforcement that dog is today safe with kids. The day you resort to Millans methods is the day you run a big risk of hurting yourself and your dog.
You can even see the electrical chock collars he is using in some episodes.They are just there for a mili second but they are there...
Any trainer that resorts to that isn't a real trainer nor behaviorist...
Posted by: Evelynn | January 21, 2009 at 05:26 AM
==========================================
Wow, so many people are ignorant about the effects of Cesar's training. They just don't know better.
Here are some points to remind people:
1. Cesar thinks that dogs are wolves and therefore alpha rolls are crucial to establish dominance. What? Dogs are not wolves. Their behavior is completely different from wolves. There are plenty of studies to show that. So what he is preaching to the public is not even valid.
2. What Cesar uses as "treatment" is physical and psychological intimidation. That's all he knows. He does not know anything about "learning theory" and how dogs learn. Learning theory consists of operant and classical conditioning. For instance, if the underlying cause of a dog's excessive barking is fear/anxiety in the presence of another dog, you would pair the presence of the dog with something pleasant to "countercondition". In the future, the dog will not be anxious in the presence of another dog because of positive association. There is no need for Cesar's sharp jab into a dog's neck or a choke chain.
3. Watch the episdoe with JonBee, a dog that was muzzled and lifted up high by a choke chain, a process called "stringing up." Now tell me that is not inhumane and not necessary. What Cesar practices is ANIMAL CRUELTY and it's shocking that the public doesn't know better and actually "approves" it. Shame on people who thinks the world of Cesar.
4. Finally, explain to me why shock/choke/prong collars and physical restraint is the only treatment for problem behaviors in dogs. If he does not know any other humane and effective ways to treat a dog's problem, he is not a "dog expert" nor "behaviorist." He's just as ignorant as the people who watch and enjoy his show.
Posted by: Joyce | May 17, 2009 at 09:40 AM
========================================
People who refuse to admit the problems with Cesar Milan are such lemmings. In one of the January posts "citydog" posted comments from respected experts that explained the dangers of Cesar's methods. The Cesar fans eagerly posted their opinions that the "experts" were clearly jealous of Cesar. Others posted their anecdotal evidence to support Cesar's methods. Get real, people. The experts that disagree with Cesar are scientists, not celebrities. I put Cesar Milan in the same category as Kevin Trudeau. Trudeau claims he can sure a whole host of diseases, including aids, with natural cures that doctors don't want you to know about. Millions of people have bought his book. If you're diagnosed with cancer, do you want an oncologist with a ph.d or some guy that claims to have the "natural cure" that the docs don't want you to have. REALLY, I'd like you to show me one prominent (legitimate) animal behaviorist that supports Cesar's methods. I'll bet you can't find one.
Posted by: LoriH | May 23, 2009 at 05:17 PM
==========================================
If you are not classically educated in 'learning theory', then how can you argue that what he is practicing is the correct way to treat problem behaviors in dogs? Keep in mind, what Cesar does is punishment and punishment only SUPPRESSES the behavior at that moment, it doesn't teach a new behavior. Also, you can't tell me that what Cesar did to JonBee (lifting the dog up high with a choke collar off the ground) is not abusive. Perhaps you should watch the episode again. People are not aware of how dogs get hurt with Cesar's technique. One of the dogs got hurt at the psychology center and the story has been featured:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194425,00.html
A very painful story that I hope no dogs have to go through. Now explain to me what happened was not abuse.
Posted by: Joyce | June 09, 2009 at 08:17 PM
================================================
You should NEVER use punishment on an aggressive dog! It is very dangerous. How do you know the dog won't retaliate? Hardly any of the dogs that are so called "dominant aggressive" in the Dog Whisperer shows actually want to dominate their owners, most of them are actually displaying aggression out of fear.
As for the claims that animal behaviourists are jealous, that is just ridiculous; vets are concerned for the welfare of the patients and owners. Many behaviourists see the result down the track of punishment based training and are rightly concerned about these methods being promoted on TV. Punishment can only suppress a behaviour- maybe forever, but then again, maybe not. There is always a risk that the dog will displace its fear and become even more aggressive later on.
Posted by: Zoe | June 13, 2009 at 10:43 PM
===================================================
My thoughts on Cesar:
1) His "pack theory" is ridiculous and has been disproved. When I watch his show I mentally substitute the words "parent" for "pack leader", "territorial" for "dominant" and "wanting to please" for "submissive". I think it's partially his use of the "pack theory", semantic though it may be, that gets real experts so hot under the collar. It irks me, too, though I try to just ignore it.
2) That being said, his work with regular dogs, not "red zone" cases, is pretty admirable. Although Cesar's clearly learned a lot of wrong information about "packs", he has great instincts and with a basic dog is a fine trainer.
3) I turn the television off whenever he gets a red zone case. Most of the animals that he calls "aggressive" are really "terrified", and some of the stuff he does, is, while maybe not abusive, idiotic. For instance, there was a pitbull who was scared of another dog and trying to attack it. The dog's tail was between its legs and its back was hunched, which Cesar correctly interpreted to mean the dog was scared, but to make the dog less fearful, he TUGGED THE DOG'S TAIL FROM ITS LEGS.
Wait, what? Body language doesn't work both ways. If I'm terrified and curled in a ball, shaking, stretching me out and forcing me still will make me more scared, not less.
5) He contradicts himself a lot. He'll say "dogs don't have emotions" and then he'll talk about a scared dog. Um, fear is an emotion. Again, not bad for the dogs or his methods, just annoying.
6) He constantly reminds us not to humanize dogs, and I guess he means the people that cradle their dog and call it their "baby" and feed it sweets, but he doesn't specifically say that, so I could take it to mean that dog behavior and human behavior work along completely different lines and motives and paradigms, which is silly and wrong, especially when you consider that a lot of what we now take for granted about human behavior (conditioning, for example) was first observed in dogs.
So in conclusion, I don't like Cesar as a person because of silly contradictions that bother me, but I admire him as a dog trainer in working with run-of-the mill cases. I would really just like him to get a teensy bit of education behind his tremendous instincts, because he knows what to do, but his explanations for why he does it is awful and probably what pisses off the experts. (Who, incidentally should be respected as such because they have far more experience than we who know only through our limited experience with our own dogs).
Posted by: Meg | June 17, 2009 at 09:28 AM
Responses to the article: Cesar Millan: Saint or cult leader? By Sean Gallagher, January 8, 2009
Millan is liked by people who don't know a whole lot about dogs. His TV show is most conveniently edited, and sadly the fallout of his methods isn't shown. He *is*, unfortunately, a marketing genius. He is not well thought of by many dog and behavior professionals, and for good reason.
“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated... I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."
Steve Dale
Posted by: citydog | January 08, 2009 at 03:08 PM
==================
My dogs are all clicker trained. They are not terrorized into performing desired behaviors. I don't relate to them through fear and domination via the Gospel of Saint Cesar.
Yes he is charismatic, yes he is a good salesman, yes he gets results. So have other cult leaders....
My dogs learn at mere weeks of age to run through their growing repertoire of behaviors until they hit on the right one resulting in the reward, then they never forget it.
Not as guaranteed to get good ratings on TV as a guy who talks nonstop, dominates his environment and everything/everyone in it, and terrorizes dogs into desired behavior. Not as much "fun" as watching a committed barker/leash puller become frightened and suspicious of a human's ever move, resulting in the dog riveting his eyes in fear on that person every second of the day.
The rewards here are for the humans who are desperate, clueless, or need another living thing to fall submissively at their feet every second of the day and night...
I guess I'm just not good with cult leaders, hucksters, hustlers, slick salespeople, or pushy "stars" in general.
Posted by: Clu Carradine | January 08, 2009 at 04:58 PM
=====================
I made the mistake of "glorifying" Cesar Millan. I saw him speak, was captivated by his power and energy and tried his methods with my "aggressive dog". It ended up with me being bitten, just like Cesar has been bitten many times by an aggressive dog, because I pushed him beyond his thresholds. But the general dog public isn't that familiar with thresholds. And of course we don't allow our dogs to have them for fear of being sued.
I find it amazing that people expect dogs to have no emotions and to NEVER express or act out on them - calm submission 100% of the time is the model, I guess. They aren't allowed to be excited, happy, fearful, anxious, sad .... why? Why can I come home from work and yell at my spouse when I had a bad day, but my dog can't? Why can I jump around in uncontrollable excitement when something good happens, but my dog can't?
I converted to positive training methods and became a true "benevolent" leader for my dog. NEVER putting them in situations that they can't handle and NEVER forcing them to face their fears or else....a kick, pop, or the dreaded alpha roll.
I protect my dogs, recognize that they have emotions and try to be the fairest leader possible using positive motiviation to help them learn HUMAN rules. But I also set boundaries, limits, rules and expectations and make sure they truly understand those rules and don't physically punish them if they don't. Let's try to remember - THEY AREN'T BORN SPEAKING OUR LANGUAGE. But of course, we expect them to have FULL FLUENCY of our spoken language by what, 6 months of age?? Ridiculous. And how many dog owners actually spend the time and effort to learn and respect canine language? Well, in Cesar's philosphy - I guess you don't have to - they don't have any rights and aren't allowed to be anything but calm, submissive.
I am closer to my dogs now than I have ever been before and we are still learning every day. My dogs now respect and respond to me and they don't do it out of fear, they do it out of respect for benevolent leadership. They trust that I will PROTECT them in scary situations, not toss them into them and kick them when they don't comply. They LOVE working their brains and learning in positive environments - there is no end to what they can do. But that is only if you spend the time to get to know who they truly are - their strengths and weaknesses, and allow them to express themselves, while managing their weaknesses not just dominating them and expecting perfect behavior all the time. Oh, I guess that would take too much effort? From my experience, you get back from the relationship what you put in. And since converting to positive training, I have been rewarded with incredibly rich relationships with my dogs.
Honestly, how heartless can people be when it comes to training dogs to justify physical punishment to an animal that WE bring into OUR world and impose all of OUR rules and expectations and then don't take the time to teach them positively how to live in OUR world? That is what I define as selfish.
Put yourself in your DOG's shoes and think about it.
Posted by: Dana | January 08, 2009 at 06:56 PM
=====================================
I am with Steve Dale on this, I rehab the SO called Red zone dogs and a lot of Mr Millans Red zones dogs are just average problem dogs in my book. And I still don't use his methods... He's out of date and have no clue what he's really doing. It works cause it shuts the dogs down and create a passive dog, he's passive cause he don't want more of what he feels is scary.
My last case I worked I had for 7 months, a 130 lbs rottweiler that did not like people to say the last. He tried to pin me and my ex husband against the wall... I never ONCE had to lay hand on this dog. Using clicker, hotdogs and positive reinforcement that dog is today safe with kids. The day you resort to Millans methods is the day you run a big risk of hurting yourself and your dog.
You can even see the electrical chock collars he is using in some episodes.They are just there for a mili second but they are there...
Any trainer that resorts to that isn't a real trainer nor behaviorist...
Posted by: Evelynn | January 21, 2009 at 05:26 AM
==========================================
Wow, so many people are ignorant about the effects of Cesar's training. They just don't know better.
Here are some points to remind people:
1. Cesar thinks that dogs are wolves and therefore alpha rolls are crucial to establish dominance. What? Dogs are not wolves. Their behavior is completely different from wolves. There are plenty of studies to show that. So what he is preaching to the public is not even valid.
2. What Cesar uses as "treatment" is physical and psychological intimidation. That's all he knows. He does not know anything about "learning theory" and how dogs learn. Learning theory consists of operant and classical conditioning. For instance, if the underlying cause of a dog's excessive barking is fear/anxiety in the presence of another dog, you would pair the presence of the dog with something pleasant to "countercondition". In the future, the dog will not be anxious in the presence of another dog because of positive association. There is no need for Cesar's sharp jab into a dog's neck or a choke chain.
3. Watch the episdoe with JonBee, a dog that was muzzled and lifted up high by a choke chain, a process called "stringing up." Now tell me that is not inhumane and not necessary. What Cesar practices is ANIMAL CRUELTY and it's shocking that the public doesn't know better and actually "approves" it. Shame on people who thinks the world of Cesar.
4. Finally, explain to me why shock/choke/prong collars and physical restraint is the only treatment for problem behaviors in dogs. If he does not know any other humane and effective ways to treat a dog's problem, he is not a "dog expert" nor "behaviorist." He's just as ignorant as the people who watch and enjoy his show.
Posted by: Joyce | May 17, 2009 at 09:40 AM
========================================
People who refuse to admit the problems with Cesar Milan are such lemmings. In one of the January posts "citydog" posted comments from respected experts that explained the dangers of Cesar's methods. The Cesar fans eagerly posted their opinions that the "experts" were clearly jealous of Cesar. Others posted their anecdotal evidence to support Cesar's methods. Get real, people. The experts that disagree with Cesar are scientists, not celebrities. I put Cesar Milan in the same category as Kevin Trudeau. Trudeau claims he can sure a whole host of diseases, including aids, with natural cures that doctors don't want you to know about. Millions of people have bought his book. If you're diagnosed with cancer, do you want an oncologist with a ph.d or some guy that claims to have the "natural cure" that the docs don't want you to have. REALLY, I'd like you to show me one prominent (legitimate) animal behaviorist that supports Cesar's methods. I'll bet you can't find one.
Posted by: LoriH | May 23, 2009 at 05:17 PM
==========================================
If you are not classically educated in 'learning theory', then how can you argue that what he is practicing is the correct way to treat problem behaviors in dogs? Keep in mind, what Cesar does is punishment and punishment only SUPPRESSES the behavior at that moment, it doesn't teach a new behavior. Also, you can't tell me that what Cesar did to JonBee (lifting the dog up high with a choke collar off the ground) is not abusive. Perhaps you should watch the episode again. People are not aware of how dogs get hurt with Cesar's technique. One of the dogs got hurt at the psychology center and the story has been featured:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194425,00.html
A very painful story that I hope no dogs have to go through. Now explain to me what happened was not abuse.
Posted by: Joyce | June 09, 2009 at 08:17 PM
================================================
You should NEVER use punishment on an aggressive dog! It is very dangerous. How do you know the dog won't retaliate? Hardly any of the dogs that are so called "dominant aggressive" in the Dog Whisperer shows actually want to dominate their owners, most of them are actually displaying aggression out of fear.
As for the claims that animal behaviourists are jealous, that is just ridiculous; vets are concerned for the welfare of the patients and owners. Many behaviourists see the result down the track of punishment based training and are rightly concerned about these methods being promoted on TV. Punishment can only suppress a behaviour- maybe forever, but then again, maybe not. There is always a risk that the dog will displace its fear and become even more aggressive later on.
Posted by: Zoe | June 13, 2009 at 10:43 PM
===================================================
My thoughts on Cesar:
1) His "pack theory" is ridiculous and has been disproved. When I watch his show I mentally substitute the words "parent" for "pack leader", "territorial" for "dominant" and "wanting to please" for "submissive". I think it's partially his use of the "pack theory", semantic though it may be, that gets real experts so hot under the collar. It irks me, too, though I try to just ignore it.
2) That being said, his work with regular dogs, not "red zone" cases, is pretty admirable. Although Cesar's clearly learned a lot of wrong information about "packs", he has great instincts and with a basic dog is a fine trainer.
3) I turn the television off whenever he gets a red zone case. Most of the animals that he calls "aggressive" are really "terrified", and some of the stuff he does, is, while maybe not abusive, idiotic. For instance, there was a pitbull who was scared of another dog and trying to attack it. The dog's tail was between its legs and its back was hunched, which Cesar correctly interpreted to mean the dog was scared, but to make the dog less fearful, he TUGGED THE DOG'S TAIL FROM ITS LEGS.
Wait, what? Body language doesn't work both ways. If I'm terrified and curled in a ball, shaking, stretching me out and forcing me still will make me more scared, not less.
5) He contradicts himself a lot. He'll say "dogs don't have emotions" and then he'll talk about a scared dog. Um, fear is an emotion. Again, not bad for the dogs or his methods, just annoying.
6) He constantly reminds us not to humanize dogs, and I guess he means the people that cradle their dog and call it their "baby" and feed it sweets, but he doesn't specifically say that, so I could take it to mean that dog behavior and human behavior work along completely different lines and motives and paradigms, which is silly and wrong, especially when you consider that a lot of what we now take for granted about human behavior (conditioning, for example) was first observed in dogs.
So in conclusion, I don't like Cesar as a person because of silly contradictions that bother me, but I admire him as a dog trainer in working with run-of-the mill cases. I would really just like him to get a teensy bit of education behind his tremendous instincts, because he knows what to do, but his explanations for why he does it is awful and probably what pisses off the experts. (Who, incidentally should be respected as such because they have far more experience than we who know only through our limited experience with our own dogs).
Posted by: Meg | June 17, 2009 at 09:28 AM