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OK, you got me started. I absolutely hate Cesar Milan. While the theory of placing yourself in the alpha position is
absolutely spot on, his methods to do so are excessively cruel. The original "Dog Listener" is Jan Fennel, which Cesar so blatantly borrowed his name from. Jan's technique places yourself in the alpha role, but by using gentle techniques that dogs use in natural packs.
The difference between their techniques is like comparing Hitler to Gandhi. I ask you: as a person, who's leadership style would you be more willing to follow? One that dominates/demands compliance, or one that leads by showing compassionate leadership?
It is not well published, but he was sued at least once for killing a dog in his care. His "choking" method crushed a windpipe and the dog (owned by a lawyer) had to be euthanized. That's when his "don't try this at home" warnings started.
To show how her techniques work. My DH went out of town for a wedding one weekend. That weekend I went to a lecture by Jan Fennel, went home, and made 2 minor adjustments to how I lead my 2 dogs: Ate a cracker before I fed them, and didn't allow them out the door in front of me. When DH got home the next day, he asked me what happened to the dogs because they were so relaxed and happy. An alpha always eats first, and an alpha always leads the pack. My dogs were happy because I did 2 things differently that had confused their relationship to me in the past.
Best book on dog behavior: Jan Fennel's The Dog Listener. It is worth its weight in gold.
Posted by Momofmany
--------------------------------------------------------
You can't deny that he has a "way" with dogs, but a lot of how he does things won't work for many people. The "alpha roll" is a ridiculous idea based on the fact that canines will show submission by rolling on their back. So theoretically, if you FORCE an aggressive dog on it's back this will convince it that it is subordinate to you? Not hardly.
And the baloney about dogs walking ahead of you or before you in doorways has nothing to do with who is "alpha." Really, he may be good at dealing with dogs, but these "wolf-pack" theories that are being used to sell his methods are misplaced. Dogs are descended from wolves, they are genetically identical (they can mate and produce fertile offspring, and are both classified as the same biological species) but we have modified their behavior to suit our needs. But dogs are not wolves, they have abilities that wolves do not have, such as the ability to take cues from humans.
By the way, the bit about getting a dog used to noises gradually is not flooding, it is desensitization. Flooding was when he dragged the dog by the leash onto a tile floor it was frightened of.
Cesar's fixation with who goes first ends up mislabeling a lot of dogs who have no behavioral issues at all as "dominant." Worse, it can lead someone to falsely a submissive dog as dominant. IF they then apply inappropriate behavior modification techniques, they not only don't help, they make things worse. His "quiz" is extremely simplistic and IMO dangerous for that reason.
http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/quizes/index.php
I agree with his "exercise, discipline, affection" philosophy, but his obession with dominance ruins a lot of the good part of what he does for me.
I found a good article that describes the fallacies the "wolf-pack-somebody-has-to-be-alpha" "theory." The research that led to this "lukomorphic" view of pet dogs was flawed- unfortunately that is not as well known.
http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-d...free-families/
There is one pretty awful video on youtube where he is talking about an Pit Bull who is in the "red zone" and demonstrating "aggression. If you want to see it here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkF...eature=related
This is not a dog showing dog-on-dog aggression. This is a dog who has terrible leash manners and poor socialization who is trying to PLAY. Dogs who are aggressive will stare with their head held down or give a low growl, not bounce up and down at the end of the leash and yap.
So what does Cesar do, lift up the dog by her collar, fling her to the ground, practically choke her. I can't believe he put this on TV this is so bad.
2dogmom
--------------------------------------------------------
Cesar Millan is a dangerous, untrained, delusional idiot. The Dog Whisperer, indeed. I know three-year-olds who communicate with dogs more effectively.
it's the whole dominance thing that is obsessed over by some and is just getting so outdated. Exercise, discipline and affection are principles that should be applied to all dogs. Getting aggressive with aggressive dogs is a recipe for disaster.
I hate it when I have people say `oh my dog's so dominant because he wants to sleep on the lounge'. Er, no. Your dog wants to sleep on the lounge because it's more comfortable than the floor. Reading dominance into everything is ridiculous and not only that, completely wrong when it comes to dog behaviour. It has its place, like everything else. But many (most) aggression issues are not to do with dominance. Hardly anything is, actually. It should really be kept in perspective but I suppose it's just taken longer for this particular fad to phase out. The concept of dominance is an entirely different thing to humans than it is to dogs - and lots of humans forget that.
There are several ways to teach a dog to heel without using chain collars. Our dogs heel beautifully and they were trained to do so using positive reinforcement - the way I train all dogs. By holding a treat down near my leg and teaching the dog that that position - with its head next to my thigh and slightly back was the `good zone'. The zone where it needed to stay to have good things happen - i.e. get a treat.
It takes a little more technique and patience than yanking on your dogs neck with a choke collar, so I admit I can see how people would prefer the quick-fix, easy way, but it's just as effective (well, I think more so - because it is consistent with the way they are trained to do everything else as well), doesn't involve outdated and cruel forms of correction and teaches you a better way to communicate with your dog that doesn't involve any kind of physical punishment.
We wouldn't put a collar around our child's neck and yank it whenever the child didn't please us, I can't imagine why it could be seen as acceptable to do it to our dogs. They certainly don't do it to each other and dragging in front of you on a leash is only very rarely a form of `dominance'. Mostly they're just excited to be out of the house.
[...]
As for finding some way to `teach a dog you are its owner', that's easy too. Firstly, they already know - seeing as you're the one who feeds them and decides their every move. Secondly, if you practice a technique like NILIF or something similar, they learn to respect and obey you, and learn their place, without it being assumed that from the second they come in your door they are going to try to dominate you, so you'd better beat that attitude out of them from the start. Really, the whole thing is just repellant.
Nobody is ever going to agree but there is a vast majority consensus that Millan is not a good trainer and that his methods should not be followed. If you are discerning enough to take what you can from his and other people's methods to develop what works for you and your dogs, then that's wonderful, and that's what many people do. But I would prefer to see that people didn't try to emulate him at all, because his attitudes towards aggression and dominance are very wrong, and if people try to follow him and don't do it with as much experience as he has (which happens all the time) it's a disaster waiting to happen.
[...]
No trainer expects every dog owner to have as much understanding and experience as we do - otherwise they'd all be trainers, wouldn't they! And so we try to teach people in a way that makes sense to them, in a way that they will understand and can emulate safely. I don't think this can happen with Millan's followers because he doesn't get it right, either - so how can people who try to copy him? I have to be honest, watching his show really makes me feel so anxious and sad and angry. It scares me that people think he knows what he's doing.
[...]
There is no need - ever - for the kind of aggressive and domineering methods used by people such as Cesar Millan. For example, holding a dog down is the stupidest and most misinformed thing you can ever do and it does NOT teach them that you are boss. That kind of method has been outdated for about 20 years - and the sooner that idiotic mindset is eradicated from modern training the better. Dogs are far more subtle than this - and any observation of actual pack behaviour will lead to the realisation that if a dog ever does this - which is hardly ever - they know why and for what reasons and how it's done, and we don't. We are humans, not dogs, and all we see is their outward behaviour. We don't see all the body language that they do, we can't smell all the smells that they can - hormones and emotions and everything else - and all of these things are also essential in determining pack behaviour. For a human to try to emulate it is ignorant and dangerous, and it shouldn't ever be done.
[...]
The same results can be achieved in totally different ways and this is being proved by trainers day after day, all over the world. When there are better and less dangerous choices out there, it fails me completely to understand why anyone wouldn't use them - unless it's simple laziness. And sadly, that's often exactly what it is.
Kitekats4eva
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not agree with his methods. For one thing the explanations he gives for why his methods work are often not based in fact. For another he relies heavily on "alpha theory" and techniques, many of which have been disproven in recent years. He uses "dominance" too often and attributes many behaviors to dominance issues when in fact the behaviors are more accurately attributed to other issues such as fear, lack of training or over-excitement.
Another thing that bothers me is he introduces all these methods as if they are brand new things that he has come up with himself when in fact they are mostly identical to outdated techniques which were used 30 years ago by many dog trainers and which have in many cases been abandoned since then. For example the alpha roll was made popular by the Monks of New Skete and they have since renounced it. Some trainers have commented that he has set dog training back 20 years... Most of the advice I have seen him give which was not based on those old punishment-based or "dominance" methods is common sense which every good dog trainer should be advocating such as making sure your dog gets enough exercise and being calm and confident during training.
Nekochan
Posted at
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166594&page=2
to
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166594&page=6
OK, you got me started. I absolutely hate Cesar Milan. While the theory of placing yourself in the alpha position is
absolutely spot on, his methods to do so are excessively cruel. The original "Dog Listener" is Jan Fennel, which Cesar so blatantly borrowed his name from. Jan's technique places yourself in the alpha role, but by using gentle techniques that dogs use in natural packs.
The difference between their techniques is like comparing Hitler to Gandhi. I ask you: as a person, who's leadership style would you be more willing to follow? One that dominates/demands compliance, or one that leads by showing compassionate leadership?
It is not well published, but he was sued at least once for killing a dog in his care. His "choking" method crushed a windpipe and the dog (owned by a lawyer) had to be euthanized. That's when his "don't try this at home" warnings started.
To show how her techniques work. My DH went out of town for a wedding one weekend. That weekend I went to a lecture by Jan Fennel, went home, and made 2 minor adjustments to how I lead my 2 dogs: Ate a cracker before I fed them, and didn't allow them out the door in front of me. When DH got home the next day, he asked me what happened to the dogs because they were so relaxed and happy. An alpha always eats first, and an alpha always leads the pack. My dogs were happy because I did 2 things differently that had confused their relationship to me in the past.
Best book on dog behavior: Jan Fennel's The Dog Listener. It is worth its weight in gold.
Posted by Momofmany
--------------------------------------------------------
You can't deny that he has a "way" with dogs, but a lot of how he does things won't work for many people. The "alpha roll" is a ridiculous idea based on the fact that canines will show submission by rolling on their back. So theoretically, if you FORCE an aggressive dog on it's back this will convince it that it is subordinate to you? Not hardly.
And the baloney about dogs walking ahead of you or before you in doorways has nothing to do with who is "alpha." Really, he may be good at dealing with dogs, but these "wolf-pack" theories that are being used to sell his methods are misplaced. Dogs are descended from wolves, they are genetically identical (they can mate and produce fertile offspring, and are both classified as the same biological species) but we have modified their behavior to suit our needs. But dogs are not wolves, they have abilities that wolves do not have, such as the ability to take cues from humans.
By the way, the bit about getting a dog used to noises gradually is not flooding, it is desensitization. Flooding was when he dragged the dog by the leash onto a tile floor it was frightened of.
Cesar's fixation with who goes first ends up mislabeling a lot of dogs who have no behavioral issues at all as "dominant." Worse, it can lead someone to falsely a submissive dog as dominant. IF they then apply inappropriate behavior modification techniques, they not only don't help, they make things worse. His "quiz" is extremely simplistic and IMO dangerous for that reason.
http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/quizes/index.php
I agree with his "exercise, discipline, affection" philosophy, but his obession with dominance ruins a lot of the good part of what he does for me.
I found a good article that describes the fallacies the "wolf-pack-somebody-has-to-be-alpha" "theory." The research that led to this "lukomorphic" view of pet dogs was flawed- unfortunately that is not as well known.
http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-d...free-families/
There is one pretty awful video on youtube where he is talking about an Pit Bull who is in the "red zone" and demonstrating "aggression. If you want to see it here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkF...eature=related
This is not a dog showing dog-on-dog aggression. This is a dog who has terrible leash manners and poor socialization who is trying to PLAY. Dogs who are aggressive will stare with their head held down or give a low growl, not bounce up and down at the end of the leash and yap.
So what does Cesar do, lift up the dog by her collar, fling her to the ground, practically choke her. I can't believe he put this on TV this is so bad.
2dogmom
--------------------------------------------------------
Cesar Millan is a dangerous, untrained, delusional idiot. The Dog Whisperer, indeed. I know three-year-olds who communicate with dogs more effectively.
it's the whole dominance thing that is obsessed over by some and is just getting so outdated. Exercise, discipline and affection are principles that should be applied to all dogs. Getting aggressive with aggressive dogs is a recipe for disaster.
I hate it when I have people say `oh my dog's so dominant because he wants to sleep on the lounge'. Er, no. Your dog wants to sleep on the lounge because it's more comfortable than the floor. Reading dominance into everything is ridiculous and not only that, completely wrong when it comes to dog behaviour. It has its place, like everything else. But many (most) aggression issues are not to do with dominance. Hardly anything is, actually. It should really be kept in perspective but I suppose it's just taken longer for this particular fad to phase out. The concept of dominance is an entirely different thing to humans than it is to dogs - and lots of humans forget that.
There are several ways to teach a dog to heel without using chain collars. Our dogs heel beautifully and they were trained to do so using positive reinforcement - the way I train all dogs. By holding a treat down near my leg and teaching the dog that that position - with its head next to my thigh and slightly back was the `good zone'. The zone where it needed to stay to have good things happen - i.e. get a treat.
It takes a little more technique and patience than yanking on your dogs neck with a choke collar, so I admit I can see how people would prefer the quick-fix, easy way, but it's just as effective (well, I think more so - because it is consistent with the way they are trained to do everything else as well), doesn't involve outdated and cruel forms of correction and teaches you a better way to communicate with your dog that doesn't involve any kind of physical punishment.
We wouldn't put a collar around our child's neck and yank it whenever the child didn't please us, I can't imagine why it could be seen as acceptable to do it to our dogs. They certainly don't do it to each other and dragging in front of you on a leash is only very rarely a form of `dominance'. Mostly they're just excited to be out of the house.
[...]
As for finding some way to `teach a dog you are its owner', that's easy too. Firstly, they already know - seeing as you're the one who feeds them and decides their every move. Secondly, if you practice a technique like NILIF or something similar, they learn to respect and obey you, and learn their place, without it being assumed that from the second they come in your door they are going to try to dominate you, so you'd better beat that attitude out of them from the start. Really, the whole thing is just repellant.
Nobody is ever going to agree but there is a vast majority consensus that Millan is not a good trainer and that his methods should not be followed. If you are discerning enough to take what you can from his and other people's methods to develop what works for you and your dogs, then that's wonderful, and that's what many people do. But I would prefer to see that people didn't try to emulate him at all, because his attitudes towards aggression and dominance are very wrong, and if people try to follow him and don't do it with as much experience as he has (which happens all the time) it's a disaster waiting to happen.
[...]
No trainer expects every dog owner to have as much understanding and experience as we do - otherwise they'd all be trainers, wouldn't they! And so we try to teach people in a way that makes sense to them, in a way that they will understand and can emulate safely. I don't think this can happen with Millan's followers because he doesn't get it right, either - so how can people who try to copy him? I have to be honest, watching his show really makes me feel so anxious and sad and angry. It scares me that people think he knows what he's doing.
[...]
There is no need - ever - for the kind of aggressive and domineering methods used by people such as Cesar Millan. For example, holding a dog down is the stupidest and most misinformed thing you can ever do and it does NOT teach them that you are boss. That kind of method has been outdated for about 20 years - and the sooner that idiotic mindset is eradicated from modern training the better. Dogs are far more subtle than this - and any observation of actual pack behaviour will lead to the realisation that if a dog ever does this - which is hardly ever - they know why and for what reasons and how it's done, and we don't. We are humans, not dogs, and all we see is their outward behaviour. We don't see all the body language that they do, we can't smell all the smells that they can - hormones and emotions and everything else - and all of these things are also essential in determining pack behaviour. For a human to try to emulate it is ignorant and dangerous, and it shouldn't ever be done.
[...]
The same results can be achieved in totally different ways and this is being proved by trainers day after day, all over the world. When there are better and less dangerous choices out there, it fails me completely to understand why anyone wouldn't use them - unless it's simple laziness. And sadly, that's often exactly what it is.
Kitekats4eva
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not agree with his methods. For one thing the explanations he gives for why his methods work are often not based in fact. For another he relies heavily on "alpha theory" and techniques, many of which have been disproven in recent years. He uses "dominance" too often and attributes many behaviors to dominance issues when in fact the behaviors are more accurately attributed to other issues such as fear, lack of training or over-excitement.
Another thing that bothers me is he introduces all these methods as if they are brand new things that he has come up with himself when in fact they are mostly identical to outdated techniques which were used 30 years ago by many dog trainers and which have in many cases been abandoned since then. For example the alpha roll was made popular by the Monks of New Skete and they have since renounced it. Some trainers have commented that he has set dog training back 20 years... Most of the advice I have seen him give which was not based on those old punishment-based or "dominance" methods is common sense which every good dog trainer should be advocating such as making sure your dog gets enough exercise and being calm and confident during training.
Nekochan
Posted at
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166594&page=2
to
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166594&page=6
